David L. Riegel: The SafeHaven Foundation…


Date: May 19, 2013

…The SafeHaven Foundation…

…Academic publications…

…Electronic Books…

…Internet papers…

…The Philosophy of Responsible Boylove…

Regarding Dave Riegel and his SafeHaven Foundation…

…This is an issue I’ve wanted to address for a while. I’m going to be adding a link to his website, on my OLF links page…But, I wanted to get a few things off my chest and just out there.

Dave Riegel may not be perfect…but from what I have known of him, he is a generally decent and well meaning person.

I believe, Dave’s motives are not dissimilar to my own…Meaning, that many of us are unable to stomach the deafening silence…and we want substantive dialogue about “our issues”, taking place in the public arena…Since painfully few people are doing this today…we step up, and add to the numbers. Sharing our views and what we have learned, is not unethical…It is to be valued and encouraged. This is probably the best option we have, right now…to get more and more people talking, thinking and discussing “our issues”, based upon objective reality.

To be sure…Dave has traveled down a path, which has earned him heavy scrutiny…I don’t know that anybody has ever contested this point of fact…Most notably, his practice of writing essays based upon online surveys [aimed at BoyLovers]. Also, I am not certain Dave still does this, but I do recall him referring to SafeHaven as a research foundation, in the past.

It has been pointed out by Dave’s [often aggressive and nasty] detractors, that Dave has no official training as a researcher…And hence, it is suggested that he has no business doing what he does…It has also been suggested, that he is doing more harm than good…Dave has stated, that he has college training in statistical analysis, and believes this is adequate for what he is doing. Personally, I take no stance on this…other than to say, I think it is valuable and very much needed, to collect, analyze and publish information about BoyLovers, for others to consider…This information, after all, is largely hidden from public consciousness…Indeed…It’s never honestly been compiled, on any substantial level…nor coherently. Dave’s efforts may be limited, but they are the first of their kind…Dave is doing something, in an area where virtually everybody else is neglecting what should be done.

As to Dave’s tendency to isolate himself…I have more than once found this both perplexing, and unfortunate…And I am not sure what he has against NAMBLA, Newgon, IPCE, etc…

To my mind…we are at a point in social evolution, where simple communication is most important…It does not matter that a lot of us have deeply conflicting viewpoints, amongst one another…For me, it is a given that many of us will “buck heads” over it…A lot of us, will just never get along…But we are accomplishing the necessity, of communicating our issues…

…The important thing, is that we keep hold of the point…that none of us should be attempting, to crowd out or silence others…

This is the one thing that really outraged me, and I became sick to death of endlessly witnessing it on BoyChat…After staying silent for years, I finally took a public stand against it…Which predictably [and pathetically] got one of BoyChat’s most infamous, mentally ill resident sociopaths, to become obsessed with me…following me around BoyChat, posting starkly irrelevant [and almost universally wrong] accusations, as clear provocation…It went on for several months [I guess they think they “taught me a good lesson”.]…In my opinion, BoyChat [and our larger sub-culture] is so messed up, because of individuals like that one, who pull such immature, smarmy and underhanded B.S…A place which is supposed to be about open communication, does not need such a mentally unbalanced, sociopath hypocrite, wandering around making a mess of the place, and acting as if they own it.

Some of these individuals, actually have the gall…to attempt passing off their clearly predatory and personally malicious behavior…as some form of “warning the unaware”, about the supposed ill character/intent of their target…When it could not ever be more painfully clear, that these individuals have a personal vendetta…Their words and actions repeatedly scream, that whatever is going on in these spectacles they put on [parade all over BoyChat, add nauseum]…it is fundamentally about they, themselves…and some personal deficiency, they need to get control of.

This “Good Samaritan” spin, is a clear lie…You don’t need comments about hoping Dave dies, gets institutionalized or euthanized, nor the endless, shameful parade of cut downs and vulgarities, in order to “let others know, Dave’s work may not be the most sound content available”…People with good intentions, do not resort to that…And it so frequently comes up in response to Dave’s posts on BoyChat, that it is just disgusting…a shameful disgrace, and a blot on BoyChat.

Dave may not “play well” with many others [a point, which accurately applies to a number of people at BoyChat and elsewhere]…but a lot of what we are forced to witness on BoyChat, is very old sour grapes…old rivalries and disputes, stemming from the SafeHaven forum days…Some people just wont let go of it, and move on.

As to the principle of “Responsible BoyLove”…I’ve never been offended by it, myself…But, a lot of BoyLovers get up in arms, anytime someone tries to articulate what they think it means “to be a BoyLover”…It seems, there is an ultra sensitivity against being “boxed into a definition”…

Personally, I think “Responsible BoyLove” is fully compatible with my own viewpoints on man/boy love…and I look upon it, as more of an ideal…while understanding, that a lot of people wont live up to it…Heck, by some people’s definition…if you get a boner for boys, that makes you a BoyLover…Other people attach more facets of relationship to it.

…I think…the sexual orientation towards boys, makes you a “base level BoyLover”…While aspiring towards deeper meaning and social good in your orientation, makes you something beyond a “base level BoyLover”…For this, people might express thoughts and labels like “Responsible BoyLove”…

Why anyone is feeling threatened by this, is completely beyond me…But it feels very narrow in vision, for others to not understand this simple principle.

Maybe “they” don’t like “being branded”…but good grief…Nobody is saying, “they” have to embrace or promote these ideas.

I should clarify one thing, though…When I say “Responsible BoyLove” is compatible with my own viewpoints…This means I accept the gravity, of making a boys better interests paramount…It does not mean, that I reject brief experiences of tender intimacy [ie: “sexual flings”], nor that I have no understanding or tolerance for human fallibility, or the fact that life is intrinsically dangerous by virtue of living it…In other words, I accept the ideal as a goal…but I don’t turn my back, on the realities of life…”Responsible BoyLove”, is not dogmatic…

I would like to bring this to a close, by pointing out one last thing…and this has been stated by others, also…

Dave is very good at documenting and summarizing the research of others, in fields which concern us…

Some people like to blow off, what Dave has done over the years…But he has published several books…These books are excellent resources, for the research and studies which they cite…Dave continues to publish essays, which do the same. This raises awareness, to a substantial body of research…One which has largely been out there for decades, but that most people are unaware of.

I do not know how many people fall into this category…But some have stated that it was because of Dave’s work, that they ended up digging deeper…And this was indispensable, to their own self acceptance…as well as learning to stand up and fight for themselves.

Dave’s work may not be perfect…but it does have serious value…And this is why, I am finally going to include it in my OLF links page…It deserves attention and consideration.


Date: October 14, 2013

I wanted to add one other thing…

…There are a number of people amongst us, who have performed remarkable acts for the benefit of BoyLovers around the globe…and I consider Dave to be in this class…Here is why…

Probably the single bravest thing I have ever seen done, out of anyone from the online BoyLove community…was the act for which Dave was once well respected, but now is virtually forgotten…Dave spent months, if not a couple of years, traveling all over the place…arranging and having face to face meetings with well over a hundred other BoyLovers, some of whom he did not know on a personal basis. I know from my own meeting with him, the potential dangers in what he was doing, was not lost on him…yet, he continued to carry out these meetings.

I do not want to over dramatize…but I also think it is entirely fair, to say that Dave was putting himself in a very vulnerable position, over and over and over, in order to collect research data…for what was supposed to have been a study assessing the psychological stability of BoyLovers. [Note: I may not be stating that exactly correct, but it was supposed to give an idea of how well we were acclimated to the world, how well we coped with things, etc.] Dave could have been set up and ambushed, any number of times…Annie Cox [one of the more dominant stalkers and harassers targeting BoyChat members [and members of the larger online BoyLove community] at that time, had Daves picture on her website, along with all these details of how Dave was using his retirement benefits to travel around for free, collecting this data…She was trying to stir up trouble, like the fundamentalist screwball she is, and derail the entire study. While I seriously doubt that Annie had much impact, the fact remains…there were people threatening Dave in various ways. Worse possible case…Dave could have been set up, abducted and murdered…That is not at all outside of the feasible, considering what he was doing and the environment in which he was doing it.

…In my opinion…this act alone, cements Daves place as a respected member of the BoyLove community…It displayed far more courage than anything else I can cite, coming from someone in our community…

If you are at all wondering why I take such great offense over it, when the parade of venom spewers come out every time Dave posts something on BoyChat [no matter how well intentioned, or sincere on the part of Dave]…No small part of my offense, comes from the fact that this foul behavior is outright antithetical to BoyChats own existence, as a discussion forum for BoyLovers who need such a resource…But on top of this…it is outright pitiful, disgraceful…and personally embarrassing as a member of this community…watching a handful behave like a pack of rabid animals…going to such underhanded depths…taking great lengths in tearing down someone who has a concrete history of putting his own ass on the line, in no small way…all for the benefit of the rest of us…And what have the relentless bitchers and moaners attacking Dave ever done, other than act like a bunch of unsophisticated lunatics, which embarrass our community?

…Maybe they have done something, themselves…but they are absolutely out of line, in the malicious way they treat Dave…There is no excuse for what they do…and they are only insulting and spitting in the face of our community, by trying to claim that they do it “in order to warn the unwary, of charlatans”…or they are “defending the community” somehow by “running off the crazies”…

I am not trying to kiss anyone’s butt, here…And I will agree, it is right that Daves work should be scrutinized…Like with each and every single one of us, there may be a lot of shortcomings with Dave…but what I have seen on BoyChat in the past, and on an outright chronic basis, aimed at Dave…has largely been senseless, extreme, ugly and unjust…

…The people who have engaged in this abhorrent behavior, have always been [likely unwittingly] telling us far more about themselves in these relentless attacks, than they have ever told us anything about Dave or his publications…

That is plain reality…and it is why the ruckus coming from these burdensome noise makers has, in my opinion, never even amounted to so much as padiddilly squat…If that group had anything of substance to detract from Daves work with, it seems perfectly reasonable that they would be bringing it to the table, instead of resorting to this chronic, low level rudeness and drivel.

I cannot even begin to take people like that seriously…They discredit and disgrace themselves, right from the start.

Thankfully…not everyone behaves like that…and many people are level headed enough, to understand and take Daves work for what it is…Dave is still afforded some degree of well earned respect, from some members of our community…and I am amongst that group…I have my clear reasons for this.

Dave is fallible, but he has proven that he deserves respect…He has earned his place in our community.

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