Monthly Archives: July 2014

Good point in there…

Date: July 22, 2014

01) In Response to This Rather Good, BoyChat Post

You are, of course, correct to point this out. We do fit into that more ambiguous place, where a child or teen may be just exploring…maybe does not even conceive of himself, with any sexual identity.

I still get a bad sense about it, when it’s suggested that we should take no stance, or we should abandon such fights.

I think one of the shortfalls, is in not recognizing that there remains a good bit of common ground between us and gays, even though there is bad blood…and social dynamics are very complicated…and it is hard to say how to reasonably get along with mainstream gay organizations, when they refuse to get along with you.

With all the fracturing into narrowly focused groups, I think the main issue has been entirely lost…That being, this is fundamentally a war on human sexuality, wherein aggressors are making things out of human sexuality which it is not. Some of us still hold to the principle, that nobody should be able to impose that upon others.

Personally…I don’t make any distinction, when it comes to the age or sex [or sexuality] of the target chosen by aggressors. They are all targets and victims of this war, just like us. That, alone, makes pushing back on their behalf worthwhile [in my opinion].

I’ve traded off a narrow fight for BoyLovers, for a broader fight…The first principle being, always strive to represent the facts honestly, no matter who or what. I fight for approaching things with openness and honesty.

…Everything else just follows under this, by extension.

[Note: Any on looking reader familiar with my incest story, who is either bored of reading it or offended by it, can pretty much stop reading this post now.]

With regards to your memories…From what I make of this issue, we sometimes just fall into “hotbeds” of sexual activity. By the time I found myself explicitly exposed to this, it was the early mid eighties. I was about twelve, but came from a deeply religious family and was “sheltered” [hobbled, honestly].

My parents divorced…mom and I relocated, moving in with my aunt, uncle and cousins…who were not religious, in any substantial way.

Of course, my cousins had a few friends who messed around and “played the field”…but the one thing that stood out, and what at least one person has called me “a freak” over…is that my cousins were sexually active with each other, and had been such, going well into the past…It was never clear to me exactly how far back…but the relaxation with it and commonality about it, suggested to me it was going on for years…at least a few.

Long story short…my male cousins “went to camp for a week”, leaving me alone with my female cousin…and she decided she was going to have me, no matter what. Never again in my life, have I ever had anyone get this sexually aggressive with me…I even rejected her advances, numerous times.

You don’t not realize what you are getting into, when you are someone with her experience, repeatedly forcing your hand into a twelve year old boys underwear and grabbing him…Which is amongst the many reasons, why I reject the idea that children aren’t sexual [or sexually aware]…I was very aggressively seduced by one…a girl younger than me, at that.

I guess, the predictable happened…and horny out of my mind, my younger female cousin became my first explicit sexual companion.

Not a single bit of this was of my own making, nor a product of my own pursuit…In fact, I thought I was “going to hell” for it.

However unique, stigmatic…heterosexual…that may not have been the first time I came face to face with human sexuality…but it was the first time I ever had a deep, physical sexual experience, with another human being.

Curiously…she is a lesbian, today…and I am a BoyLover…The male cousins involved, are heterosexual.

I’m fairly positive I could have had something going on with one of my male cousins, also…because there was one time, when he opened the door to some messing around…but it never lead anywhere. I, perhaps strangely, was not interested in him like that.

So…I do, honestly, understand the fluidity of human sexuality…especially at younger ages.

It was my own experience that, despite being of my sexual orientation, not only did I not want to have every boy I came across or who made himself available [and no, my cousin was not particularly bad looking]…but randy girls, could offer quite the amazing experience, too.

A few have suggested here, that this experience [or set of experiences] of mine is so far on the fringe, that it doesn’t really matter or count for anything.

All I can say is…it is a road which has opened my own eyes, to things which maybe a lot of other people do not get to directly see.

Yeah…kids have sex, but it’s always stuff going on under the surface…It’s impossible to tell, what exactly is the most normal way kids deal with their sexuality. Mostly, we all just have our own personal past to go on…and it was not until several years after I came online, that it really dawned on me…not only am I not an isolated freak incident…but people have these kinds of experiences, a lot more frequently than many would have us believe.

We’d have to have another Alfred Kinsey, and a sea change in public attitude, in order to get a clearer picture of this.

Give Up on Gay Rights?…

Date: July 22, 2014

…BoyChat Response…

…BoyChat Response…

Should we as BoyLovers, stop supporting gays and lesbians?

Can you tell me…

…just how it is, that we could ever justify not supporting gay children and gay teens?

I know a lot of people here love the idea of “the horny straight boy, who just wants good blowjobs, and doesn’t care who gives them”…But common sense says to me, that a lot of the boys likely to be most interested, will probably self identify with being gay.

Should we abandon that demographic?

Do we deserve any rights ourselves, if we don’t even support the very same people…who stand to become our “counterparts”?

I don’t know how to split that hair…when we start talking about “the gays”…Many kids who are homosexual, identify with “the gays”…

If we entirely cut ourselves off from this cause…then we back ourselves into an even smaller corner…and an even more ludicrous proposition…that we [males] want homosexual activity with boys…but only heterosexual boys…who we expect to remain straight…No gay boys allowed?

Let’s not forget how important it really is, that we stand up for all parties involved and effected…Unless we want to see a future, where all this still remains just a fun masturbation fantasy, and anyone doing more gets shunted off to a prison cell.

Understand the totality of what you are suggesting…It will not serve us well. We cant justify selectively fighting for limited groups, here…And as Django says…even some of us here, cross the line into more than one camp.

This is a hair, you just cant reasonably split.

Maybe I look at it a bit different, being LBL…

Date: July 22, 2014

01) Responding to This Post

…I don’t really expect any boy I am attracted to, to be stereotypically anything…If he seems effeminate or gay, that does not bother me.

Maybe I am a tad off base, by not giving enough weight to our attraction towards straight boys…or, at least ambiguous and freely explorative ones…I just think, not standing up for gay young is counterintuitive and counterproductive…whether we have any sexual interest in them, or not.

I don’t really have a lot more to say about this.

…Of course, my issue was always with this “to hell with the gays” sentiment…or the notion that we have no business, in taking up a stance concerning them.

I realize there have been some truly despicable developments in the gay movement…But gays in general, we can identify with what they go through as children and teens…And it is the children and teens, who are not honestly having any voice in where the gay movement has gone. They don’t deserve our scorn and wrath…They’re being pulled along by the current, like nearly everybody else.

“How Dare You!”: Pedophiles Are Not Jews, Blacks, Gays, etc, etc…

Date: April 24, 2010

This was supposed to be an article, for Newgon’s Uncommon Sense magazine. Unfortunately, Uncommon Sense went on hiatus…and presumably has been stuck in limbo, for the past few years.

As to addressing objections and outrage, expressed in response to identifying parallels in the treatment and plight of scapegoated minorities…

Many people get the wrong impression, when someone brings up Jews, or black slavery, gays & lesbians, the sorts of things that were done to them, and how those things parallel what is being done to pedophiles and ephebophiles, in our modern world today.

It is important to understand a few things, and not allow ourselves to get carried away with outrage, over false notions of “how creepy pedophiles have the gall, to insult the death, slavery and suffering of innocent and good Jews, blacks and gays, by claiming it was all on par with a right to child rape“…

We are not implying, that all variable factors are “even, across the board”, as relates to all targeted minorities.

No, every situation is unique.

What we are talking about, are the specific social, and political, tactics, that are employed against the most harshly treated, disenfranchised minorities, under the intention of crippling their abilities to attain equal social status and political power [or influence].

Generally speaking…

…Whether we are talking about the Jews, Blacks, Native Americans, Gays & Lesbians, or the pedophiles and ephebophiles [and any number of other socially abused groups]…the schemes, tricks and tactics employed to hurt those groups, have been overwhelmingly the same, all along.

…Things like…

a) Chronic exposure of the public to propaganda…

b) Character assassination…

c) Creation and enforcement of stereotypes…

d) Extreme levels of censorship aimed at opposing viewpoints…

e) Manipulation of studies [corrupting data, skewing “findings”, and concealing important information]…

f) creating an atmosphere of threat and intimidation…

g) Organising to destroy the careers of key individuals…

h) Conducting boycotts [and harassment campaigns] against publishers and businesses [ie: book sellers] that would dare give certain people a voice…

i) Organising to smear and stigmatise the sound research, and educated opinions of others who disagree with them, even including highly respected experts in the field.

j) Sabotaging attempts at honest discussion, and treating such honest discussion, as if it were profanity, or “insane”…and never worthy of thoughtful consideration.

k) Promoting contempt against the targeted minority [while contending, this is the only right response], and often with a very personal viciousness…

l) Exploitation of targeted minorities [for financial & political gains, career advancement, etc].

m) Social ostracizing, imprisonment and “hospitalization”, of people who are objectively harmless.

All of these behaviors and tactics, have been employed as weapons against every one of the previously mentioned minorities.

Looking back on history, most people seem to regard the maltreatment of said minorities, as having been unspeakable inhumanity, and a blight on human history…but, this is only after the initial social hysteria has passed, and the political stranglehold of oppressive groups has been broken.

Today, we are free to say that Adolf lied about the Jews, or that the U.S. lied about Native Americans, blacks and gays, without much fear of being personally imprisoned, assaulted, murdered, reduced in social standing , or having property vandalised.

We are perfectly free, to pick through all the articles, studies, movies, enacted laws, social programs, etc, etc, with a fine tooth comb, and point out what a bunch of manipulative, horrendously abusive, exploitative and dishonest dirt bags, the people behind them were…because the people behind those acts of cruel inhumanity, are no longer in power [most are dead].

When we attempt to look at these exact same, abusive behaviors, being employed in a time era where the stigma and hysterics are at their height of intensity…

…scarcely few people are willing to point out the obvious abuses, or show some integrity by standing up to the abusive people behind them.

…It’s “not their fight”…or “to dangerous”…or “to costly” to themselves…

Yet, just because so much of the human species is timid, whenever there is a real battle still to be fought, and hence most will not even acknowledge it unless forced to…this in no way discredits, that what is happening to pedophiles and ephebophiles today, is nothing more than the same old, tired, political, vicious cycle, that has been going on in human cultures, all throughout human history.

It is called scapegoating…

…It is called socialised predatory exploitation…

It may be half a century, or more, before pedophiles and ephebophiles, are publicly acknowledged amongst the ranks, of those other previously mentioned groups…or that the majority finally admit, what was done to us, how we suffered because of it, and who was behind these acts of cruel inhumanity.

What is happening to us today, will never be acknowledged by the majority of people, who are alive today.

This will not happen, until it is safe for people to get educated and speak their own mind.

Most simply are not pioneers, forging human rights…Most are followers, waiting for someone else to clear the path.

…When this happens…well…Hitler bashing abounds almost everywhere today, now doesn’t it?…

To bring this full circle, let me end with this comment…

No amount of turning away, ignoring or denial, is ever going to refute the fact, that pedophiles and ephebophiles, are suffering from many of the exact same tactics, which were imposed upon Jews, blacks, Native Americans, gays & lesbians, and various other exploited, oppressed groups, throughout human history.

I readily acknowledge, that pedophiles and ephebophiles, are not currently being rounded up, and taken off to death camps, nor are we being kept like chattel and forced to work fields, nor is anyone legally allowed to massacre us…

The tactics of predatory, social manipulation have evolved since those days…Today, it is much more murky, and even put forward as “more humane”.

Yet, pedophiles and ephebophiles still have many parallels, and they still have vitalities of their natural lives robbed of them…They still lose so much, and they still have inhumane things done to them.

Debate about “inconsistencies of severity” all you like…It does not matter.

Corrupt, abusive, inhumane behavior, is still corrupt, abusive, inhumane behavior, no matter how it is packaged and marketed…

…and it needs to be identified, confronted, and put to an end, no matter where it manifests from.

One of the biggest failings of our species, is that we rarely, if ever, rise to the immediate challenge in social conflict…We rarely seem to take action, in the moment where it is most vital to do so.

This is why scapegoating, and socialised predatory exploitation, are allowed to not only exist…but to thrive, in wondrous prosperity.

As a practical matter, why don’t we address this root social problem, bring it to an end, and allow all groups to have a factually accurate representation?

…Then the majority of people might begin to understand, that we are not insulting Jews, blacks, Native Americans, or gays & lesbians, at all…

…We would certainly solve many social problems, if we ever did employ such a level of honesty.

Have you no concept of redemption?

Date: July 20, 2014

…BoyChat Response…

…BoyChat Response…

There are many ugly realities, which would probably make you sick to your stomach…just below the surface of your romanticized idea of “standing your ground”, “castle whatever” and macho social justice…

This young person is somebodies son…as would be the theoretical person, who you propose no qualms about murdering [well, son or daughter].

It does not matter what mindless laws have to say about it…If a person is at your mercy, and you kill them…you are a murderer, no matter what some rotten law has to say about it.

People who knew and loved this individual, who you seem to think nothing of snuffing out, are going to know the true value of their life, and experience the tragedy of that loss. Don’t think it would not effect you, either…Every big talker thinks themselves “John Wayne”, until they actually have to look at, confront and live with what they have done, and the broader consequences of it.

You aren’t simply dealing with some sterile matter of stopping a nuisance…You are bringing something into the world, with extreme and cruel consequences…and for what?…to please and boast your own ego?

You know…some wayward people actually go on to do good, even great things in this world…

…You have no right to judge their worth…nor to snuff it out.

Technicalities of the law do not shield you from the fact of your responsibility and guilt, when you have done something deplorable which hurts others.

Your love affair with the law…

Date: July 20, 2014

…BoyChat Response…

…BoyChat Response…

Your love affair with the law…

…points out a stark difference between yourself, and a lot of the rest of us who realize…that a lot of wrong, messed up crap happens in our culture, and it is allowed to go unchallenged…it is even encouraged…by the existence of extremely messed up laws, written and passed by cruel people.

Law is not the supreme good…nor is it often a good source of moral guidance. In fact, it is largely a convoluted rabbit hole.

I for one am of the mind…that a large amount of what gets placed into the law books by government…is most fit, out of all options possible…to be torn out, and used to wipe my behind.

Things which are most important in this world, are that we are good and decent to each other as human beings…That we bring up as many children in this practice, as we can…and that we not allow those hostile to us, to destroy this.

Historical documents, state borders, sovereignty, law books…These are all illusions which will pass…just like everything and everyone else.

Those laws you cite…If they allow what we have seen here, then they are rotten and foul…They point to a lack of even minimal humane human decency.

I invite you to rise above this sterile acceptance, and be a better human being.

Ageism: The whole idea of ‘the naive child’…

Date: July 20, 2014

…BoyChat Response…

…BoyChat Response…

As to intergenerational intimacy…

…Some of us consider the nature of the relationship, the nature of the activity, and the nature of the setting to be the most crucial and relevant points, on which to judge such things.

We don’t append a biological age to the equation, when weighing the nature and relevance of it.

If someone is sexually brutalized, their age does not matter, where it comes to judging the nature of the act.

If someone is sexually loved and accommodated, their age does not matter, where it comes to judging the nature of the act.

That is not to imply there aren’t other factors, which might lead to the conclusion…that sexual relations between specific people would be wrong.

…It is just to say, that some of us believe that age should not be the prohibitive wall, which it has been allowed to become.

Who are the “nay speakers” to be telling all of humankind, that this form of love “is not” a normal part of growing up?…

…They’ve been trying to beat and torment it out of existence for centuries, yet it still goes on…Surely, it has a stark historical record of existence, in the natural world.

Gross violent battery is not…

Date: July 20, 2014

…BoyChat Post…

…BoyChat Post…

Gross violent battery is not…

…a simple matter of making and enforcing house rules.

It is not something which should be protected, or encouraged, by law.

Just because someone is caught doing something in your home, does not mean you have ownership over that person, nor a right to savagely injure them, nor a right to threaten their life.

…And you seriously need to detach yourself from this notion, that everything allegedly intended, or put into written law, by the founding fathers, was expected to be a fully binding road map of everybody’s future.

Things evolve…culture evolves…

We are talking about a situation which was probably already brought to a halt, before the father even made physical contact with the eighteen year old…What the father did, was almost certainly uncalled for, and maybe in it’s entirety.

This is not the wild west…Try to find at least a tiny bit of humane empathy, and some sense of social order…Okay?

You don’t seriously want to encourage these sorts of savage vigilantes, do you?

In a private home or not…that was a sickening abuse, and exploitation of loose laws.

As a side note…I always find it curious how so many people site the founding fathers, when arguing their own world views…and predictably, people act as if they knew the founding fathers…And of course, the founding fathers “obviously shared their own world views, and social goals”…and they are such “experts” on the founding fathers, and “what they intended”…including for the rest of us, forever.

You know what I think would be wonderful to watch?…

…I’d like the day to come, where we can resurrect from the dead the founding fathers…Then I’d like to see a reality show made, where in the truly bat shit insane “freemen”, “constitutionalists”, “self glorified, god given sovereigns”, are forced to live in a closed community, with our founding fathers as their neighbors…

…I would be tied to the television [for once, in over two decades], watching the developments unfold.

How long do you suppose it would take, before they started bucking heads with people from an entirely different time era, with different moral outlooks, and who never envisioned many of the things that exist today?

…I’d give the loonies maybe two weeks, before assassination attempts commenced.

…Then again…maybe the founding fathers would be so outraged at the behaviors of these “freemen”, they’d put them on trial and throw them into prison cells…or execute them.

Both are completely plausible…but I do not believe for one second, that it would turn into some fantastic love fest.

The founding fathers are long dead…Stop trying to speak for them…and for the rest of us.

The true strength of humans exists in our ability to empathize, to think, reason and learn individually, to evolve…and to rise above our weaknesses and impulses. It does not exist in shackling ourselves to the words and ideas, of long dead people who could never understand the world we are living in today.

What they imparted upon us is important…but not to the point, of justifying the down right stupid, inhumane and indefensible.

…I think they’d be outraged, if they knew the many ways their names and legacies were being used today.

We Don’t Have to Make a Comment About Everything, When We Comment About Anything…

Date: July 20, 2014

…BoyChat Response…

…BoyChat Response…

“You think that if a 15 year old exploits the naivety of an 8 year old that’s ok? […] I think that’s a disgraceful thing to do & I’m concerned that yours is a view shared by a large portion of this community I think that is indefensible.”

Many here, and probably most, are genuinely alarmed and disgusted by substantiated examples of child/youth abuse.

It is an issue which not only impacts children/youth, but it also impacts us, severely.

As someone who is concerned about child/youth welfare, of course, I cannot consider a teenager raping an eight year old to be acceptable. That would be outlandish, to do such. What remains in question, is whether or not this was factually happening. Because there is to little information, and to many volatile factors [ie: an irate and violent father, who might intimidate his own son into mischaracterizing the relationship], I choose the defensible position of holding back comment on the nature of the acts involving the eleven year old and eighteen year old.

This likely explains most people’s motive, in saying little or nothing about it.

Everything about the news report we are responding to…from the headline, to the bulk and flow of the story…to the graphics and media…It is all entirely centered around the savage beating of an eighteen year old, and the cocky bragging of the violent father. Whatever happened with the boy, is only given very brief mention…two or three sentences?…It comes off almost like an afterthought, to the author.

I’m not sure where this has gotten lost on some people…but of course, just like the bulk of the commentators at that article, we are also inclined to respond to the foundation of what is being reported on [the savage beating, and arrogant aftermath].

There are at least a few different peripheral issues of great importance, which we could also discuss. Child rape is one [even if it has not been established, in this case]…Another, is the problem of lack of community, mentorship, structure and accountability within our own minority. Raymond may be an excellent example, of an isolated and not self realized BoyLover, left to fend for himself with no guidance or expectations placed on him.

I think we all have strong understanding, of what happens with so many who are lost in that social fog.

…But the news report was not about those issues.

The fact that these peripheral issues might not have come up, says unequivocally nothing with regards to our communities stance on such issues.

If you want a clarification on how we view such things, then respectfully ask.

There is no justification for putting words into other peoples mouths, nor turning around to judge people like this. Please don’t make baseless claims about us, as a group.

Sometimes, People Are Just Too Open?…

Date: July 19, 2014

01) BoyChat Response

There is that, yes…

…and if one is looking broadly enough, one will certainly find things I’ve not given acknowledgement too in my posts. But to reserve a minimum of fairness for myself…I was never intending to write an all encompassing thesis on this…I just set out to share a few thoughts, which is one of the most typical behaviors on this board.

The question of kids who are simply raised to be open and free, regarding what they can talk about with their parents?

Yes, I completely agree with you. I still don’t believe this is the norm…though admittedly, I’m getting a bit crusty and old…and I’m not an expert, on every nuance of how modern kids are relating to the issues of sex.

Near as I’ve seen it…There have always been the more open and tolerant families, who will let their kids be…well…open, about the subject matter [they can ask anything, tell anything, etc.]…Those families don’t represent a majority, as I understand it…Repression of the issue, intentional or not, has been the norm.

…Which is one of the reasons why it makes lesser sense to me, when a kid living in a generally non-permissive culture, doesn’t think twice about just blurting something like this out without understanding the wider consequences…At the very least, to me, this implies some degree of sheltering and imposed naivety…or indoctrination.

In all fairness, we don’t know if the kid who tattled was doing so, because he thought “This is wrong, and I’ve got to tell someone who can stop it.”, or if he just thought it was funny and told his mom…or if he was just sincerely looking to someone he trusted, in order to explore and work out the whole issue in his own mind.

You’re right…There are a lot of things, which potentially lead to that kind of exposure.

…I’m still inclined to believe, that an indoctrinated kid under the thumb of his parents, is the most likely scenario.

But you know what?…I am something of a paradox here, myself.

My early family life was very repressive in this manner…yet I unwittingly found myself in at least a couple early life exposures to sexuality, compliments of a few older cousins.

It might be wrong to say “it’s in my genes”, even though who I am [and my natural interests] likely played a role in this…but I think I was mostly just conditioned by my parents, to know that I could not talk about this without something bad coming of it. As consequence, it never occurred to me to say a single word to anyone, about any of it. This is a conclusion I came to, when I was six, seven…eight years old…I don’t even recollect any exact age…I just remember the events, vividly…and knowing without question, I could not tell anyone about it.

Only one of these cousins, from the latter experience, begged me not to say anything about it…but it never crossed my mind to tell anyone, anyway.

Maybe, it has always just come naturally to me because of who and what I am, to shelter what I interpret as good or neutral, and to keep necessary secrets.